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	<title>Comments for VK1DA&#039;s Blog</title>
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	<link>http://vk1da.net/blog</link>
	<description>Amateur Radio, Computing and other activities of Andrew VK1DA</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 15 Mar 2012 10:44:41 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on RD Contest &#8211; State Scoring formula by andrew</title>
		<link>http://vk1da.net/blog/2012/03/14/rd-contest-scoring/comment-page-1/#comment-78</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Mar 2012 10:44:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vk1da.info/blog/?p=282#comment-78</guid>
		<description>Hi Onno,

My aim was not to define a complete scoring system, it was just to examine the formula used in rule 14.1 and to suggest improvements from a mathematical viewpoint, assuming the goal of the rule is to fairly compare the point scores earned by each state and decide on a winning state.

The other rules define the legal contacts and what points they earn.  If the point scores earned for the contacts made was roughly proportional to the size of the state, when a similar proportion of the state actually operated, then that part of the rules could be considered to be working correctly.  This could be the subject of a separate simulation or analysis to see if it is indeed operating in that way.  

For much more fascinating reading and research on this topic I refer you to the scoring table used in the 60s and 70s for this contest.  I knew the vk2 table intimately.  That table attempted to award points on the basis of difficulty, distance, rarity, probability, population, activity, fairness, wind and tide etc.  It was controversial and was eventually dropped.  Then there was the system introduced in the early 80s.  That attempted to set a long term participation rate for each state and rewarded the biggest improver with the win. That system was not without its critics either. The RD contest has a long history of complex rules being changed periodically to try to find the elusive perfect system.  

Andrew</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Onno,</p>
<p>My aim was not to define a complete scoring system, it was just to examine the formula used in rule 14.1 and to suggest improvements from a mathematical viewpoint, assuming the goal of the rule is to fairly compare the point scores earned by each state and decide on a winning state.</p>
<p>The other rules define the legal contacts and what points they earn.  If the point scores earned for the contacts made was roughly proportional to the size of the state, when a similar proportion of the state actually operated, then that part of the rules could be considered to be working correctly.  This could be the subject of a separate simulation or analysis to see if it is indeed operating in that way.  </p>
<p>For much more fascinating reading and research on this topic I refer you to the scoring table used in the 60s and 70s for this contest.  I knew the vk2 table intimately.  That table attempted to award points on the basis of difficulty, distance, rarity, probability, population, activity, fairness, wind and tide etc.  It was controversial and was eventually dropped.  Then there was the system introduced in the early 80s.  That attempted to set a long term participation rate for each state and rewarded the biggest improver with the win. That system was not without its critics either. The RD contest has a long history of complex rules being changed periodically to try to find the elusive perfect system.  </p>
<p>Andrew</p>
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		<title>Comment on RD Contest &#8211; State Scoring formula by VK6FLAB</title>
		<link>http://vk1da.net/blog/2012/03/14/rd-contest-scoring/comment-page-1/#comment-77</link>
		<dc:creator>VK6FLAB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Mar 2012 00:04:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vk1da.info/blog/?p=282#comment-77</guid>
		<description>Andrew,

My point is that the two, scoring and as you put it, valid contacts, are not separate issues - each end up in the state ranking. You can fix the scoring all you like, but it assumes that all states are created equal and clearly they&#039;re not.

Let me try to say this in another way.

The argument you make relates to participation rate per state and attempts to even out between states with different population sizes. That&#039;s fine. But the population size is not the only metric; the population density affects the individual state ranking just as much, if not more.

What I&#039;m trying to say is that a state like VK6 where the population density is extremely low with basically one pocket of people (Perth), has no incentive to make HF contacts because getting from Perth to Broome is as hard as getting from Perth to Sydney.

So a participant in Sydney can make contacts to Adelaide, Brisbane, Hobart, Canberra and Melbourne, and get inter-state points for their effort, where a person in Perth, working the same distance gets to Kalgoorlie, Albany and Geraldton, all within the state, none of which are scored in the same way as the Sydney participant.

So, your discussion deals with how many people are turning on their radio, compared to how many radios there are in the state, but it does not take into account the disparity between a VK2 and a VK6 operator.

The two issues cannot be dealt with separately, they go hand in hand and should both affect the state ranking formula.

That was my point.

73, Onno</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew,</p>
<p>My point is that the two, scoring and as you put it, valid contacts, are not separate issues &#8211; each end up in the state ranking. You can fix the scoring all you like, but it assumes that all states are created equal and clearly they&#8217;re not.</p>
<p>Let me try to say this in another way.</p>
<p>The argument you make relates to participation rate per state and attempts to even out between states with different population sizes. That&#8217;s fine. But the population size is not the only metric; the population density affects the individual state ranking just as much, if not more.</p>
<p>What I&#8217;m trying to say is that a state like VK6 where the population density is extremely low with basically one pocket of people (Perth), has no incentive to make HF contacts because getting from Perth to Broome is as hard as getting from Perth to Sydney.</p>
<p>So a participant in Sydney can make contacts to Adelaide, Brisbane, Hobart, Canberra and Melbourne, and get inter-state points for their effort, where a person in Perth, working the same distance gets to Kalgoorlie, Albany and Geraldton, all within the state, none of which are scored in the same way as the Sydney participant.</p>
<p>So, your discussion deals with how many people are turning on their radio, compared to how many radios there are in the state, but it does not take into account the disparity between a VK2 and a VK6 operator.</p>
<p>The two issues cannot be dealt with separately, they go hand in hand and should both affect the state ranking formula.</p>
<p>That was my point.</p>
<p>73, Onno</p>
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		<title>Comment on RD Contest &#8211; State Scoring formula by andrew</title>
		<link>http://vk1da.net/blog/2012/03/14/rd-contest-scoring/comment-page-1/#comment-76</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Mar 2012 06:31:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vk1da.info/blog/?p=282#comment-76</guid>
		<description>Thanks Bill, your comments appreciated.  Andrew...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Bill, your comments appreciated.  Andrew&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on RD Contest &#8211; State Scoring formula by Bill Main (VK4ZD)</title>
		<link>http://vk1da.net/blog/2012/03/14/rd-contest-scoring/comment-page-1/#comment-75</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Main (VK4ZD)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Mar 2012 06:13:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vk1da.info/blog/?p=282#comment-75</guid>
		<description>Excellent scoring method. Makes sense. I think the new rules allow intrastate contacts as well. (Paragraph 9.7 in the new rules)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent scoring method. Makes sense. I think the new rules allow intrastate contacts as well. (Paragraph 9.7 in the new rules)</p>
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		<title>Comment on RD Contest &#8211; State Scoring formula by andrew</title>
		<link>http://vk1da.net/blog/2012/03/14/rd-contest-scoring/comment-page-1/#comment-74</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Mar 2012 01:31:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vk1da.info/blog/?p=282#comment-74</guid>
		<description>Hi VK6FLAB (sorry but I don&#039;t have your name)
You make some very good points about what contacts are valid. 

However that is a different discussion. The focus of my analysis is on how the state scores are calculated, once the valid contacts have been made. If we can sort out the state scoring formula we will be in a better position to fine tune other parts of the rules. 
73, Andrew</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi VK6FLAB (sorry but I don&#8217;t have your name)<br />
You make some very good points about what contacts are valid. </p>
<p>However that is a different discussion. The focus of my analysis is on how the state scores are calculated, once the valid contacts have been made. If we can sort out the state scoring formula we will be in a better position to fine tune other parts of the rules.<br />
73, Andrew</p>
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		<title>Comment on RD Contest &#8211; State Scoring formula by andrew</title>
		<link>http://vk1da.net/blog/2012/03/14/rd-contest-scoring/comment-page-1/#comment-73</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Mar 2012 00:44:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vk1da.info/blog/?p=282#comment-73</guid>
		<description>Thanks Alek I appreciate your comment.
Andrew vk1da.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Alek I appreciate your comment.<br />
Andrew vk1da.</p>
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		<title>Comment on RD Contest &#8211; State Scoring formula by vk6flab</title>
		<link>http://vk1da.net/blog/2012/03/14/rd-contest-scoring/comment-page-1/#comment-72</link>
		<dc:creator>vk6flab</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Mar 2012 00:29:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vk1da.info/blog/?p=282#comment-72</guid>
		<description>Interesting break down, but being from a state where we have no neighbours, your discussion does not appear to take into account the situation where there are many states close together.

Out here in the West we have to make do with what we have and most of the contacts are made within Perth on 2m and 70cm. In the more populous states these same bands can be used for interstate contacts and HF can be used with much less effort than in WA where intrastate HF contacts are not counted, but the same distance, north to south WA, covers several states in the East.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting break down, but being from a state where we have no neighbours, your discussion does not appear to take into account the situation where there are many states close together.</p>
<p>Out here in the West we have to make do with what we have and most of the contacts are made within Perth on 2m and 70cm. In the more populous states these same bands can be used for interstate contacts and HF can be used with much less effort than in WA where intrastate HF contacts are not counted, but the same distance, north to south WA, covers several states in the East.</p>
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		<title>Comment on RD Contest &#8211; State Scoring formula by Alek Petkovic</title>
		<link>http://vk1da.net/blog/2012/03/14/rd-contest-scoring/comment-page-1/#comment-71</link>
		<dc:creator>Alek Petkovic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Mar 2012 23:42:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vk1da.info/blog/?p=282#comment-71</guid>
		<description>Yep. Well done. It is simple and fair and it encourages participation.

You can&#039;t ask for more than that.

Thanks and 73,
Alek. VK6APK
RD Contest Manager for 11 years in the dim dark past.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yep. Well done. It is simple and fair and it encourages participation.</p>
<p>You can&#8217;t ask for more than that.</p>
<p>Thanks and 73,<br />
Alek. VK6APK<br />
RD Contest Manager for 11 years in the dim dark past.</p>
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